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Sistemul Quattro si sistemul de transfer (Diferential) - schimbare ulei in grup la A4 B9

Discuție în 'Audi A4 B9 (2015 - prezent)' creată de djxme200, 2 Dec 2018.

  1. djxme200

    djxme200 Silver Member

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    A4 B9 nu are Quattro permanent ? Auzisem ceva ca la A4 B9 ar fi un fel de haldex, si ca de fapt ar avea torsen doar primele modele. Poate posta cineva informatii suplimentare despre acest subiect ? Am tot cautat pe internet dar nu am gasit mare lucru.
     
  2. MarianMaxx

    MarianMaxx Audi Expert

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    Tot ce este quattro ultra, este un haldex inbunatatit... nu torsen. Daca nu este nevoie de aderenta, tractiunea se muta pe fata, iar in caz de nevoie vine distribuita la roti.
     
  3. Flo1980

    Flo1980 6th Gear Member

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    Totul se face acum pentru consum scazut si norme Co2 acceptabile, altfel sistemul e f rapid, in 500 milisecunde intra quattro.
    Pt detalii poze deschizi penultimul fisier (audi q5 type fy) doar ca i limba lui Moliere.
    http://www.geott.fr/ssp/ssp-audi/
     
  4. bobalex18

    bobalex18 Platinum Member

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    A4, B6, 1.9 TDI, multitronic 2004; A4 B9, 2.0 TDI 2016 Stronic&quattro
    sistemul ultra este foarte bun deoarece în caz de necesitate poate muta mai multă putere pe spate decât sistemul quattro normal. multă lume face o confuzie cu haldexul normal care mută foarte puțină putere pe puntea spate.
     
  5. djxme200

    djxme200 Silver Member

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    Deci toate B9 au quattro ultra sa inteleg? Am gasit diferite informatii pe internet dar nicaieri in specificatiile masinii nu am gasit mentionat acest “ultra”.

    S/RS4 sa inteleg ca folosesc conventionalul torsen cu torque vectoring nu?
     
  6. lowlife

    lowlife Audi Expert

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    Problema e ca e reactiv mai intai de toate, chit ca dupa ce reactioneaza face si drege, deci zero permanenta, minus viteza, minus minus fiabilitate/plus costuri intretinere :) Acum vorbind serios, n-am vazut un test, dar tind sa nu cred laudele ampixulea, ca "reactioneaza dinainte".
     
    audi11wst apreciază asta.
  7. bobalex18

    bobalex18 Platinum Member

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    djxme200 pe s4 și rs4 nu este ultra. acea unitate ultra nu face față la un cuplu atât de mare

    sistemul are în permanență un 4-5% distribuit pe puntea spate. în caz de nevoie acesta urcă la un procent mai mare decât în cazul unui torsen normal.

    motorul în această configurație obține consumuri foarte bune iar în teste a ieșit 48% din timp cu tracțiune majoritară spate și 52% cu tracțiune majoritară față.
     
  8. djxme200

    djxme200 Silver Member

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    Multumesc pentru raspunsuri, dupa ce am achizitionat masina am plecat din tara si nu am apucat sa o testez un pic pe partea de aderenta sa vad cum se comporta.
    De obicei testez toate masinile intr-o atmosfera controlata (parcare etc) pentru a vedea care sunt limitele si cum reactioneaza pentru a sti cum sa reactionez si eu in caz ca pierd aderenta pe drum.
     
  9. lsc05

    lsc05 2nd Gear Member

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    Audi A4 B9, 3.0 TDI (CSWB) quattro 218 hp, 2017
    Eu din cate stiu quattro ultra a fost prezentat pe A4 allroad, care a aparut dupa versiunile sedan si avant si nu a fost disponibil decat pe allroad. Masina mea are Torsen si eu zic ca si ale voastre la fel
     
  10. MarianMaxx

    MarianMaxx Audi Expert

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    Ultima editare: 7 Dec 2018
    zeratul și LIVIU_MTM apreciază asta.
  11. MDU

    MDU Silver Member

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    Cat de bun dpdv practic este sau nu quattro ultra nu cred ca se reflecta in momentul asta din articolele de pe Internet pentru ca observ ca de obicei sunt subiective/comerciale. Feedback-ul dat de proprietari in timp cred ca va fi o informatie mai valoroasa.
     
  12. MarianMaxx

    MarianMaxx Audi Expert

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    Pai de bun, e bun, doar ca nu mai este ce a fost. Daca vrei tractiune brutala, acum doar din diferential sport se mai obtine. Mari diferente la mers normal nu sunt intre cele doua sisteme, probabil in situatii mai delicate lipseste Torsen, dar electronica compenseaza.

    De exemplu motorul lui @lsc05. Este un V6 3.0TDI, dar are puterea unui 2.0TDI. Are doar 28CP in plus, care se pierd in tractiunea quattro, dar tot 400NM. Daca ii punea Torsen devenea mai lenta decat 1.6TDI... plus ca nu mai castigau la consum.
     
  13. MDU

    MDU Silver Member

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    Inteleg punctul tau de vedere. Dar totusi cred ca acel 3.0 tdi cu tot cu pierderile de la torsen nu e chiar egal cu 2.0 tdi ultra, motorul de 3.0 avand totusi o banda de cuplu mai larga. Iar 2.0 daca ar fi avut tot Torsen nu cred ca ar fi devenit mai lent decat un 1.6 TDI; sa pierzi 75cp (190-115) doar din Torsen imi pare cam mult.
     
  14. LIVIU_MTM

    LIVIU_MTM 1st Gear Member

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    RS3 8V 2016, CIVIC FN1 supercharged, CRX DEL SOL VTI, scirocco mk1 G60 swap, CBR1000RR
    putin paralel la topic, in cautarile mele pt a intelege ce sistem am pe masina si cam cum functioneaza, am dat peste aceasta discutie, intre un user si un tehnician audi.

    Hello.

    As the owner of an Audi S3 I make use of the haldex LSC everyday. I am also
    a member one particular Audi forum (www.audi-sport.net). We have discussed
    the issues of haldex, torque transfer and such like. In particular regard
    comparing to Torsen.

    The haldex LSC solution is often seen as inferior and is often said to be
    "not real 4WD". I disagree and believe it's abilities go beyond that of
    Torsen when used in real driving scenarios.

    I would greatly appreciate it if you could take the time and answer my
    questions. I'll try to be as brief and as clear as possible. Thanks.

    1) haldex claim 100% torque transfer to the rear is possible. Is it? Some
    people dispute this, but I believe it requires 100% slip of the front wheels
    for this to be the case. i.e. In real conditions it would never happen, the
    more realistic split is 50-70% under full load and some slip. I came to this
    conclusion because the front wheels are always driven.

    2) There is much dispute over whether the haldex LSC delivers torque to the
    rear if and only if the front wheels slip. It's my belief that the torque
    transfer can and does occur in response to wide throttle openings, even
    before any slippage occurs. Can you confirm?

    3) With particular regard to the Audi S3 (or TT). Do you know if the
    steering angle is taken into account when deciding whether to increase or
    decrease the torque transfer? i.e. is it purely throttle/slip related or is
    actually much more complex? If possible, some explanation would be useful.
    For example, if there is 10% to the rear and I turn a corner, would it
    increase to 30 or 40% to provide increased stability. If so, would be that
    due to a natural left/right speed difference or a result of steering angle
    change (ESP sensor)?

    4) There is much debate on the "constant speed" torque transfer to the rear.
    i.e. travelling on a road at 30 or 70MPH, how much torque is transferred to
    the rear? Is it speed dependant?

    5) Does the torque transfer under acceleration depend on the current vehicle
    speed? If so, can you provide characteristic details?

    Any further information you can provide would be appreciated, in particular
    how the haldex LSC operates in conjunction with the ESP and whether the ESP
    can affect the transfer of torque.

    The folk on the forums are an enthusiastic bunch who appreciate technical
    explanations to technical problems. If there's anything else you can provide
    beyond the questions I've asked, that would be very welcome. Once again, I
    thank you again for taking the time to read my questions.


    Cheers.

    Mark.

    Reply from Haldex -----------


    Dear Mark,

    I am pleased to see that you like your Audi S3 with the haldex AWD system
    and that you disagree with your Torsen friends when it comes to the
    excellent abilities of the haldex AWD System. It is a fact that the
    electronically controlled haldex AWD system provides a much wider range of
    possibilities over a purely mechanical system. We are also convinced, after
    having delivered 500.000 haldex AWD systems to the market since our start in
    1998, that we also have the best electronically controlled AWD system on the
    market.

    We have put together some answers on your questions that I hope will be
    helpful in your discussions in the Audi forum.



    1. There are situations where near 100% torque transfer to the rear axle
    occur. An example is if the front wheels are on ice and the rear wheels are
    on tarmac. In that case the front wheels have (almost) no grip. In that
    case, the haldex coupling will transfer all torque to the rear axle and
    prevent front wheel spin. On uniform surfaces however, the coupling can not
    transfer all torque to the rear axle. See below.

    2. We need slip over the coupling in order to be able to transfer torque.
    That slip (rotational speed difference between the front and rear axle) is
    created by different tyre rolling radius (front to rear) and drive slip
    between the tyre and road. The rolling raduis difference can be created by
    differently worn tyres (or different dimensions, something that should be
    avoided) and different load. In most cars, the front axle has a greater load
    than the rear axle, which causes the roll radius of the front tire to be
    smaller than the one for the rear tyres (given the same nominal size). This
    gives us the possibility to transfer torque to the rear axle also when no
    slip occurrs on the front tyres.

    If you have differently worn tyres on the front and rear axles, the new
    tyres should always be on the rear axle. This is true no matter if the car
    is FWD, RWD or AWD, since you otherwise risk heavy and uncontrollable
    oversteer in situations such as aqua planing. In this case, putting the worn
    tyres at the front also helps not to reduce the maximum transferable torque
    (maximum rear axle torque).

    During cruising which a constant velocity, we have the possibility to
    transfer up to 40-45% of the torque to the rear axle, given nominal tyres.
    During acceleration, the weight transfer increase the front tyre slip and
    decreases the rear axle slip, giving us the possibility to achieve more or
    less the same torque distribution as the dynamic weight distribution.
    Generally speaking, depending on the vehicle somewhere around 60-70% is
    possible to achieve during a full acceleration. Note that we are still
    talking about a uniform surface, with no spin on the front wheels.

    When cornering , there is in most cars a tendency for the inner front wheel
    to lift and spin. In that situation, we can increase the torque transfer
    even further.

    So far I have only spoken about what possibilities there is to transfer
    torque. How much is actually transferred depends also on how the haldex
    coupling is controlled. The engine torque and gas pedal position are
    together with the wheel speeds and the engine speed the most important
    signals that are used in the control. Brake, ABS and ESP signals are also
    very important for enabling co-existance between the AWD system and the
    ABS/ESP system. We control the coupling in order to prevent wheel spin as
    well as removing it quicky if it should occur.

    3. <B>Steering angle is not a signal used in the control of the coupling in VW
    group cars. </B>The reason for this is that the steering angle is not available
    in most cars as it is only present when an ESP system is mounted. We do
    however calculate the curve radius from the wheel speeds. We have software
    ready using more signals as the steering angle that we offer to the vehicle
    manufacturers. This enables further optimisation of handling performance.

    4. It may vary a bit with speed (and road surface), but without going into
    details a figure of around 10-15% would be typical. It is enough to help
    stabilising the car while at the same time saving fuel and reducing the
    temperature of certain driveline components. As soon as the driver starts to
    accelerate or decelerate, more torque is transferred.

    5. Yes it does. In general, a higher percentage of the torque is transferred
    to the rear axle in low velicities than in high ones. This is partly due to
    the fact that the total available driveline torque is larger at lower speeds
    (and lower gears), thus causing more weight transfer to the rear axle. In
    order to achieve consequent handling characteristics (as well as optimised
    traction), more torque must then be transferred to the rear axle.

    6. The haldex coupling is completely compatible with ABS and ESP systems.
    In order to optimise the performance of the ABS/ESP system, it is possible
    to open the haldex couplng during ABS braking or a stability control brake
    intervension. The ABS/ESP antispinn and stability control also depend very
    much on being able to calculate the vehicle velocity. That is very easy with
    2WD, but as soon as you have the possibility of four wheels spinning it gets
    very complicated. The haldex coupling and ABS/ESP system interface make it
    easier to obtain a good reference velocity.
    In the cars where the haldex coupling is available today, additional signals
    available with ESP are not used. We do however have software using these
    signals. This enables further optimisation of handling performance and life
    span of driveline components.


    During calibration of the haldex coupling , we try to optimise the traction
    and handling performance of the car. These are however not the only aspects
    that are important. The final calibration is alway a compromise between
    traction, handling, the life span of driveline components, temperatures in
    driveline components, fuel consumption and more. If the car manufacturer
    wants the same calibration to be used in several different cars, a new
    compromise has to be made. Different manufacturers do have different
    strategies about this. Some tend to let many cars share the same calibration
    while others want to optimise each car individually.

    I hope that this answers your questions.

    Best Regards

    Ulf Herlin
    Vice President, Marketing
     
  15. MarianMaxx

    MarianMaxx Audi Expert

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    @MDU nu m-am facut iteles mai sus! Nu vorbeam de cuplu si putere, vorbeam de aceasi viteza la acelasi consum, dar motorizari si transmisii diferite.

    Ce vreau eu sa subliniez este ca acum nu se mai pune importanta pe ansamble grele si cu pierderi de putere... se cauta un consum redus si economie.
     
    MDU apreciază asta.
  16. Cristi Staff Member Staff Member

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    Audi A4 B7 - S-line - 2.0 TDI ( BRE ) 140 CP
    Si cu asta incheiati discutia cu privire la orice altceva in afara de tiltul topicului. In acest topic dezbatem problemele si rezolvarile cu privire la sistemul Quattro pentru A4 B9. Nu discutam altceva si nimic in afara a ceea ce am mentionat. Multumesc.

    Pentru cunostinte generale exista Google si milioane de site-uri pe net cu privire la tot ce va interseaza in privinta sistemului Quattro, de cand s-a inventat pana astazi.
    Sau trebuia sa cititi si aici: http://www.clubaudi.ro/threads/quat...mporta-explicatii-probleme-si-rezolvari.7980/
     
    vibeup apreciază asta.
  17. Oudi

    Oudi 6th Gear Member

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    Preluat de la nemți. Tot ce este diesel cuplat la cutie automata pana in prezent este Quattro permanent. La benzinare poate fi permanent sau Quattro ultra in functie de putere si de anul fabricatiei.

    $_10.jpeg
     
    MRR apreciază asta.
  18. vibeup

    vibeup Silver Member

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    Deci ce este sub 180kw are ultra... aviz amatorilor de tuning posibil sa apara probleme.
     
  19. marcelush

    marcelush 5th Gear Member

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    AUDI A4, B9, (DETA), S-tronic, 2.0 tdi, 190cp, quattro
    Pai ... NU. Cred ca ai inteles gresit
    Ia de exemplu Limousine diesel 140 kW, cu DSG si Quattro - e clar ca e Quattro simplu - care inseamna Quattro classic cu TORSEN - inainte de facelift
     
  20. Oudi

    Oudi 6th Gear Member

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    Audi A4 B9 quattro 2.0 DETA
    Conform tabelului, toate motoarele TDI cuplate la cutie automata au quattro permanent inclusiv 2.0 Tdi de 140kw.
     
    MRR apreciază asta.

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